Israeli transport police take fare dodging very seriously!

It's typical; you wait ages for a bus to arrive ... and then it blows up.

LOL@Sushi69andLaughingGra vy
(Icanttopthose)

i think you need to get that bus ready slim. Make room for about 80 people.

How about this one ???
Nice leg, shame about the boat race...

shit...anyone missing an arm?

Would any of the anti-Israeli contingent among us care to explain how this is justified?
(Hint: don't say 'Israel targets civilians too' because it doesn't - it targets terrorists who hide in civilian areas.)
OK - over to you.

Hang on, this is not the aftermath of yesterdays bus vid is it???

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ALLAH FUCKIN SNACKBAR, it the palestine fun bus, all aboard.......BOOOOM
was that a fake tit sack at the 210mark

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Fair enough, but this is exactly what happened in London on 7/7! I ain't gonna stop going there though!

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i

The Muslims (easy to spot) in this comments section are a sick bunch of fucks. No surprise there.
There's no difference between a bomb in Tel-Aviv and in London - both acts of Terrorism are carried out by Muslim savages.
Islam is a Terror cult.

steal their country--you're a fuckin idiot-they never had a country to begin with you little fuckstick!

when you don't actually know what PART or a human being you're looking at, now that is bad. "yeah see ya later todd, i'm just going into town to get some lunch with Gill"

Ok I am not anti-israelie , but to answer some of the people here, this is no different from Israelie planes nuking neighbourhoods and killing children and unarmed people and then apologizing and saying "opss". Just put yourself in the shoes of a dad/mother/brothe or sister of someone that was killed by the israelie army. Well, after taking over your land and occupying it for 50-60 years. Also being under their mercy 24/7 and you are living in very poor conditions and being abused at every checkpoint going to work and coming from it just because you are who you are. Once you are pushed that far, you are capable of taking a cheap shot at their civilians like that. Plus almost every Israelie Adult is a member of the army. Reserve or active, so who is not to say that most of them are FAIR game, similar to the civilians that get killed in Palestinian towns because they have a "terrorist" among them?!! And yeah please go one cursing me and swearing at me that I am a terrorist hugger and all, but I am just someone that keep an open mind as much as I can in this screwed up planet ..

How come people like you can say, without embarrassment, that 'they're fair game because most Israeli adults are in the army' and then close by claiming you have an open mind?
Like I said, Israel does not deliberately target civilians. But if you expect it to ignore terrorists who hide in civilian areas, then you're greener than you appear.
In contrast, this 'brave' suicide bomber walked onto a bus. Where's the military value in a couple of dozen women going to the market?

I am saying to "Isrealie adults are fair game" to that palestinian that his family was fair game because they live near a so-called terrorist. For example, what kind of a terrorist is blind, disabled and on a wheelchair since he was a young adult or in his teens, EVEN if he supported suicide bombing. Ahmed Yassin was assasinated by a helicopter missle when he was going or coming back from prayer. He was blind, on a wheelchair. If you say because of his support for suicide bombers, I would say then most of the people in this place should be "fair game" to muslims because they keep sayin nuke muslims, kill muslims ... etc.

You answered your own question there.
Are you saying that because Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the co-founder of the Hamas terrorist organisation, was blind and wheelchair-bound, Israel should have just patted him on the head and taken him for a push round the park?
You're a loony, mate. I think my time will be better spent arguing with this pencil I've just found under my desk.

maybe they could have made it a fair fight and sent Stephen hawking in to kick Yassin's ass...now that would have been a good vid

Hey GUNSBOY!
you wrote:
"...Plus almost every Israelie Adult is a member of the army..."
I won't argue about the ethics of this argument with you, but at least have your FACTS straight:
Israelis who have to go the army- roughly 50% of all 18 year olds (arabs and orthodox jews are free from service)

Israelis who actually go- about 25%
Israelis who stay in reserve- about 10%
(for more than 5 years- 0-5%)
A LOT of israelis came to the country as adult immigrants- they obviously dont serve. Hell, some of them hardly speak hebrew!
(they also use public transport more than any other group of people)
SO, that leaves us with something like 80-90% CIVILIANS on any given israeli bus at any given moment.
Still think it's fair game?

Very good, thank you for correcting my info. So we can safely say 20% of people on a bus or a pizza shop can be soldiers.
What is the % that IDF would consider an OK collateral casualties from palestinian civilians to kill one or two hamas member??

(Warning: this is going to be wordy)
Gunsboy, you are comparing apples and oranges.
I cannot compare israeli and palestinian collateral damage statistics, because the mere term "collateral damage" doesn't apply to palestinian methods.
Here's why:
Typically, Hamas blows up a RANDOM bus, filled with RANDOM people out of which, as you say, 20% MAY OR MAY NOT be soldiers. Let's say 10 people are killed, incuding 6 jewish elderly ladies, 1 arab, 1 orthodox jew and two RANDOM soldiers, all victims of an explosion designed to kill everybody in range.
Typically Israel hits a SPECIFIC militant, based on SPECIFIC intelligence about him planning to do something very nasty, very soon. Let's say his bodyguard, and two bystanders are also killed (not a too far-fetched outcome).
If you insist, thats collateral damage of 50% civilians, 2 in total. A result of an operation that prevented the OTHERWISE INEVITABLE death of maybe dozens israeli bus passengers/pizza eaters.
See the difference? the soldiers killed in the palestinian bombing were NOT it's target, and cannot justify it, while the collateral damage from israeli strikes usually more than justifies them.
I say usually, because sometimes the IDF fucks up, i'll be the first to admit. the yassin assassination being a perfect example. but unlike the islamic movements, the IDF never kills civilians just to kill some civilians.
So, do you see the difference?

Ok, I agree with you for someone that is not involved in the war itself, the action of IDF might be MORE justifiable than the action of a Hamas member blowing up a bus. But for someone that lives under occupation and someone that lost 2 little kids in an IDF "collateral damage" with no means for getting even except a cheap shot to bus or a pizza store then that would be their only way. I am not saying it is OK to kill civillians, I hope that this madness would stop from both sides, there is enough water and food to feed everyone if distributed fairly.
When you are pinned on the wall by a very big bully, your only way out is a cheap knee between the legs or just wait for him to come back again and kick your behind.

Well, since we're settled about the facts, the rest is opinion.
Me, I think that there is LOTS of poverty and occupation going on in the world, yet only the palestinians use this kind of terrorism as a solution. Their choise, their children. In negotiations they achieved A LOT more- and, literally, blew it away.
Israel suffers from it's own corrupt, unprofessional governments (one after the other... why even vote) that cause a lot of pain to both sides in their inability to make even moderately wise decisions. It can be, and should be criticized. But it is NOT some evil empire that kills babies for fun. Despite what "human rights nazis" all over the world would want you to believe.
And I want peace too. It's just slightly more complicated than people tend to think.
So, if this is settled, i will now leave you in peace. Think I'll go argue with Disolution, his over-opinionated ignorance annoys me very much.

Disolution, you showed us chapter one.
I, for one, am a big fan of the less-known chapter two:
http://hrw.org/english/do cs/2007/08/30/lebano16740 .htm
Can you say "plot twist"?

Ahem, Gunsboy, ignore that. Stupid "one comment in 5 minutes" rule mixed up my replies. java script:loadText('')

i totally agree with you there. the media is obviously biased against the palestinians, probably because there are more israelis in media and in the whole system

well..umm. that was a very casual video shoot ... feels fake, then it doesn't , then it does.. then it doesn't.. .. . bloody zionists.

Is that a silicon breast implant lying on the grond at the 2.02 mark??
How freaky is that?

lol i was just gonne "blow up" on some of the racist faggots goin on and on about how muslims are bad and some people think it makes them sound cool to say Allah Huakbar (Glenn m talkin to you) the way they wanna say it....but then i scroll down and i see the posts from well educated and intelligent people like gunsboy and NUIYZ and i dont even havta say anything....life is good

Christ almighty.
First, you think NUIYZ is backing you up? "Tom And Jerry is a Jewish conspiracy"? Are you even awake?
Then you think gunsboy is 'well educated and intelligent' when he says those bus passengers were fair game - because most Israelis serve in the army?
You need a napkin. There are flecks of foam around your mouth.

oooooooo-you were just gonna blow up--you were gonna do nothing but whine like the sandape lovin faggot you are!

...these people have to find a safer way to entertain themselves. Blowing each other up is getting old.

this is what all explosions, plane crashes, train crashes, etc. look like - very gross, very sad
always innocent victims
doesn't matter where - or by who
it would really be GREAT if we could round up ALL the barbaric, heartless fuckin animals - in ALL countries-and roast those motha fukkers with their own bombs

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Pop quiz hotshot! There's bus in Isreal with a suicide
bomber on who just can't wait to his hands his promised 72 virgins. What do you do? What do you do? This isn't real. It's the alternate ending to the film "Speed". You can check it out on the superduper,we swear this will be the last one ultimate DVD,Blueray,HD dvd limited edition boxed set.

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GOOD POINT Red6ixx
guess we need a new plan
WHISKEY FOR MY MEN - BEER FOR MY HORSES

Get your Israeli \ Palestine classic TV shows on DVD, with such titles as:
"Fattah knows best"
"Everybody loves Ramadaan"
"My Jew Dads"
"The Dukes of Hamas"
"The OT" (occupied territory)
"The Gaza Girls"
and many many more..............

You'll never see scene's like this on the 6 O Clock News....Saw this on You Tube a while back.Just pull up Hamas,and there's a whole Shit Load of footage like this...Guess there's NEVER gonna be Peace in the Holy Land.... as Doris Day would say....Que Sera Sera....

as usual palis destroy what jews build. they really are a one trick dog....

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nico99, lmao dude you are just an asshole with too much time on your. you need a life buddy and yes we all know u hate Muslims and you need to get over it

Funny how debates sink to this level once one side has run out of useful things to say.
And why should I hate Muslims? What have they EVER done to the West?

I wonder who gets to clean up the mess!! YIKES!!

i imagine palestinians masturbate over this kind of stuff. they fuckin love it

...And this ladies and gentlemen is why i ride the short bus...not even Muslims would attack retards.....
and no I'm not retarded I'm just special

I'm jew, I live in Belgium, I don't give a shit about Israel our about Palestine, but one thing I say is : don't kill inocent people !!!!!

Kinda like the israelies blowing up a car containing a supposed terrorist then firing a second missle when its surounded by women and kids who only came out of thier houses to see whats going on, this kind of bus bomb only seems fair

OK! Everybody sing!...Thaaaa Jews on the bus go boom, boom, boom,...
fuck it. I was already going to hell anyway.

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RE: Nico99
I'm not anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian, but just because this (the bus bombing) is wrong, doesn't mean that Israel is right to act the way that it does.
In July 2006 the Israeli army destroyed a UN observation post in Southern Lebanon, killing 4 UN observers.
In what Kofi Annan described as "an apparently deliberate targeting" of the post, it was shelled 14 times before being destroyed in an air strike.
All this despite the team making several attempts to contact them.
A rescue team was also shelled as they cleared the rubble.
That's not targeting terrorists living in urban areas, it's just murder.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert deeply regretted the deaths and said they were accidental - but we don't believe that, do we?
Evil Zionist pigs.
Israel clearly needed to kill those UN peacekeepers because they... er... because... um...
OK - I give up. What possible reason could Israel have for deliberately targeting a UN observation post?
Remember this was during the confusion of a full-scale conflict with Hezbollah - it wasn't a Tel Aviv bus stop on a peaceful Monday morning.
And why do I have the strangest feeling that, if it had been Hezbollah that had blown up the UN post, people would have been claiming it was a false flag operation by the Israelis...?

@nico99 maybe Disolution is right!
maybe the Israelis did do it on purpose ..after all it must be impossible to target the wrong place with all that western hardware they have , after all most of it comes from America and they never hit the wrong target during a battle!
(unless your in a British tank )

At the end of the film ' Dr Strangelove or: How I stopped worrying and learned how to love the bomb'.
Vera Lynn sings "We'll meet again, don't know where don't know when".
This vid should have Sachmo singing "Its a wonderful
world".
Just trying to be ironic.

Wanna see something funny - do a search on "Pallywood" and see how innocent those Palestinians really are youtube has best quality video... LMAO...
Palestinians had 2 choices when the Jews came to the BRITISH CONTROLLED LAND, they could have welcomed their semite brothers with open arms or wage war - Looks the Pali's made the wrong decision

THAT TURNS ME ON.

@nico99- As tempting as it is, you can never talk sense into some people. You have done well for yourself despite the thick headedness of a few..
@John Allen Muhammad: Refer to my post in the next video

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shouda been in africa if you know what im scrachin at

RE: Nico99
Here's the BBC's take on it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h i/world/middle_east/52171 76.stm
The post was shelled for six hours before being hit by a precision bomb.
They contacted the Israeli forces 10 times and were assured each time that the shelling would stop.
A senior Irish soldier working for the UN told the Israeli forces six times that they were endangering the lives of UN staff.
Does that sound like an accident to you?
Apparently Israel didn't fancy having independant observers on the scene.
RE: VanWilder
I explicitly stated that bus bombing is wrong.
Terrorism is wrong.
It doesn't make killing UN observers and innocent civilians right.

If it was deliberate, you will be able to show me plenty of other examples of Israelis DELIBERATELY killing civilians when there were no terrorists in the area.
If it was an accident, you will only be able to find a few.
Should I start citing Palestinian atrocities against civilians to see who has the longer list?

yeah the BBC-the wimpass liberals mouthpiece-no bias there right shit for brains!

I think all you guys are missing the point!!!
THE REAL QUESTION IS:
"Is that a sillicon breast implant @ 2:02 !?!?"
Who cares about the rest!

nico I don't think this is a justification as much as it is a vendetta against an occupier. There is no justification to war.
Yea this vid pretty damn gruesome, but unlike many here, I still see Israel as an occupier. These things are expected when one occupies your land. I wonder how it would feel like if LA came to claim San Diego as their land by religious right...Man..the shit would hit the proverbial fan...
On another note, I find it particularly amusing that folks put down Palestinians for fighting in the name of Allah and yet the whole basis of Israel's persistence on keeping this land is for the sake of their own faith! I mean Jesus, the star of david is on their flag for God's sake. Both sides are willing to take it to extreme levels. I feel sorry for those caught in the middle that just want to live.

@that guy: Well put man, and long time no "see". You do pretty well for yourself in these debates at looking at both sides equally. Personally, I probably have more of a bias opinion. Even though I try to see both side equally, having a cousin in the Israeli Army probably puts me naturally more on the Israeli side of things. But the question I can't stop asking myself is if it is worth it for either side, right or wrong?

F**k you muslims. Nice religion where you glorify cowardly pieces of shit that kill innocent people

mcdeez the "cowardly pieces of shit" you are referring are their only lines of defense against their occupier. nevermind whether you agree with the cause or not. you have to accept the fact that Palestinians dont have a legit army and until they do, you will see more of this. Oh, and doesn't every country glorify its soliders/fighters? Ever heard of The National Vietnam Veterans War Momorial in Washington D.C.? Im sure some of the people on that wall killed innocent women and children during their tour in NAM and don't you dare tell me otherwise. Also, READ my last paragraph of my first reply to nico...
Anyone care to chime in on the question iDosay brings up at the end of his reply post to me? Please try to articulate your thoughts and attempt to be someone eloquent...

'their occupier' funny how you put that. Let's not forget that it's ISRAEL's land and they have the right to it. Let's not also forget that Israel has given land to the Palestiniacs, freely, even though they didn't/don't have to. Even giving away land isn't good enough. Palestinians want more and more. nothing is ever enough.
Don't give me the crap that its their ONLY line of defense. This is how you win a battle with someone..by blowing up innocent people and not fighting face to face with their so-called oppressors? like i said "cowards". Just imagine if Israel had the same mentality. Would Palestine even exist today?
and yes, we do glorify our soldiers because they do fight for their country and they are heroes. Don't try to compare American troops with cowardly pieces of shit. It makes you appear as though you are a moron. OK, back to work...

You truely are an idiot! you dont have a clue! that is NOT israels land! That land was stolen from palestinians by the US and allies after WWII and was given to the jews unlawfully because they had no where to go. As for israel giving them land...haha...you truely are a fukken lamer...look at geographic maps of the region over the past 60 years and tell me israel is giving any land away. in actuality, Jews are stealing and killing lebonese and palistinians for their land and claiming god gives them the holier than thou rights to do whatever they want because they are jew and only a fat fukkin jew has rights in this world by their beliefs. A jew believes that any Non jew is less than human and only a jew will ever go to heaven. Think about it. If jews were never given that stolen land, none of this middle east bullshit would be happening.

iDosay thanks man. good to see you are still around. how is the academy treating you? Anyway..worth it in what way? i approached your last question by saying the following: Vengence is a brilliant blinding "light" and in that source of blind rage lies the solace that what each side is doing is right. I think to the Palestinians and Israelies, the fight will always be worthy for each side because once vengence subsides, pride is left to control their actions.
Is it worthy from our view? hell no it isnt. You dont want to get a call from your aunt or uncle saying your cousin got killed, and I dont want to find out that my friends have been killed over there. Besides emotional attachements this shit thats happening over there sends ripples of many sorts through out the world and those ripples could very well dictate our quality of life.

lol u fackin retard mcdeez

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that is fuckin off it

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I think this is great! Israel getting their just dessert. The world would be a much happier place if that piece of shit country full of holyier than thou asshats were wiped off the earth and the rightful owners of the country got their land back! WTG Pali resistance!

wow, you think it's great for innocent people to be slaughtered and right, it's all Israel's fault....islam is a religion of peace...bla bla bla. maybe next time you'll be riding the next bus when this happens, huh? suck on deez. go kiss your fat momma good night and tuck your sorry ass in. hopefully, you'll eventually grow up and learn some real history.

dude there is way to much emotional rhetoric in your posts. you come off as a jackass. try posting something that warrents a feasable debate...but then again..it is a free country and asses are allowed to post shit...literally. but dont fret, you can find solace in the fact that you are one of many...
word of the day kids, is SOLACE..

lol I just read this comment from you Dr.K. i take it you havent been around here too long... Dont get me wrong, I do understand your frustration (as im sure you have read my posts) but, as long as you are here i might as well be the person to tell you, if you expect your comments to have any merit among the "intellects" (i use that term very loosely with the exception of a few that deserve the true title) around here that ride both sides of the fence, you cant go around saying stuff like that.
So for the sake of preserving radical remarks amd somewhat decent debate here at nothingtoxic, please express yourself with caution : D I say this because im sure you and i will end up debating on something a little further down the line...

Add some sand... Add some sun.. Add religion .. You don't need drugs.. You don't need hitlers .. You don't need serial killers.. All you need is a religion .. Simply put religion is the #1 cause of death in the world not associated with illness.. Go figure.. Just add water, religious addicts and a lack of self worth and a worthless doctrine made up by man and you have a cocktail worthy of leading any freak into killing in the name of a made up god or religion .. Great job there explosive boy .. Now let's let the rest of the mentally ill religious freaks destroy themselves in a peaceful way and leave others to figure out that there is no god on their own.

carefullly pushed trough life in
hunger, thirst, unemployment, the deaths of loved ones, ...
We may all be surprized, where we all could go!!
I belive thats why they fight, and no end is near.

Piss on everyone over there. They deserve each other.

wow thats some raw shit, at least they didn't feel anything...hopefully

that leg at the end waz pritty FAAAAATTTT!!!!!!!

@ DocKavorkian, what we need is to wipe out people like you off the face of the earth. assface shit talkers like you are the reason this world is getting blown into pieces. i am a muslim and i wudnt wish this on anybody white black brown chiritian muslim blah blah blah. but i guess you are just another nico99 and as long as people like you exist, this shit will never end. peaceful people like us who just want to live their lives and live it happily among other people are gonna havta suffer and die in these bombings and then the rest havta be scared of retaliation.

So, as long as people like me exist - people who think a legitimate state has a right to defend itself against terrorists - there will never be peace?
While I suppose the guy who walked onto the bus with a vest full of C4 is in line for a Nobel...

well put, you and me both.

I usually can't tell what's what in these videos. Mean's my mind isn't too screwed up yet!

The situation won't change with suicide bombings.... Palestinians and Isralies have been going at it for 50 years. Some people need to grow some balls and have a real war and be done with it. For crying out loud WW2 only took 4 years.

thats because in WW2 you didn't have all these worthless liberals running around saying ohhh you can't do this and you can't bomb that!-to beat a monster you must become one yourself!

That was a pretty nasty clip but iof your stomach can handle it, here's a much much more graphic one.
http://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU
enjoy

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R.I.P Rest In Pieces...

If you look close enough you can make out the remains of both Sandra Bullock and Keanu Reeves, not to mention, in the background a very happy looking Dennis Hopper! This is nothing more than the set for "Speed 3"

There hasn't been a bus bombing in Israel in a long time- years, if I'm not mistaken. I wonder when this was taken.

Yes.
They seemed to become less frequent once that satanic, Zionist imperialist wall went up.
You remember - the wall that had all the Islamists frothing with fury.
The wall that Israel said was necessary for its defence.
Funny coincidence...

I was wondering where me phone was...

disgusting!

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Then they could've fought under any banner, like a conscript. Today, we would consider these people mercanaries.

all this because the guy with the leg in the aisle tried to trip him

RE: Nico99
If you truly believe that Israel doesn't attack civilians then I'm wasting my time even trying to discuss it with you.
No offence, but you have your opinion and I'll have mine.
I think that people's mindsets on this issue are pretty unchangable.

Honestly - I want examples.
We all know that Palestinians DELIBERATELY target civilians. That's a given.
But you say Israel does so too. However, I say such incidents are accidental, as a legitimate state would get no benefit on the world stage from intentionally butchering women and children.
So - give me a dozen examples of Israel deliberately killing civilians as their main target, not as collateral casualties as they go after some Hamas terrorist.

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I think having a bus pick up suicidal people is a great idea, but blowing the bus up can’t be cost effective

think it was a penny bomb?

some good kosher meat for grabs there

Did i see teenage mutant ninja turtles on the scene of that bus aftermath

RE: Nico99
http://www.guardian.co.uk /israel/Story/0,,2163809, 00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h i/world/middle_east/52766 26.stm
http://www.truthout.org/c gi-bin/artman/exe...ew.cg i/62/21362
http://www.zmag.org/conte nt/Mideast/guardi...cross -jenin.cfm
http://www.commondreams.o rg/headlines02/0916-03.ht m
I'm sure that you'll come up with some way to justify it all, though.
I can understand that Israel feels like it's under siege from all angles, but it does indiscriminately attack whole towns, villages and areas.
Attacking Red Cross vehicles and UN observation posts seems to me like they think they can kill whoever they want and nothing will happen to them.

Three of those refer to Lebanon, where Hezbollah hid among civilians.
One refers to Jenin, where Islamic Jihad hid among civilians.
Here's an interesting take on that one:
http://www.adl.org/Israel /jenin/
The key sentence in your last example is: 'For its part, the Israeli military admits no intentional wrongdoing, stressing that its soldiers are often in dangerous combat situations and targeted by Palestinian militants.'
They were pursuing terrorists in most of these incidents.
Again, if you compare the number of times civilians have been deliberately targeted by Israelis with the number of times Palestinian terrorists have deliberately targeted civilians, you'll see a marked difference.

A few questions here...
What is the fixation on blowing things up?
What is the fixation on killing innocent people?
These are the ultimate in cowardly acts and yet people choose this as a means of establishing their place in life while letting the rest of the world know just how sinister their religious cult has become.

RE Nioc99
As I said before, I'm not going to be able to change your mind and you're not going to be able to change mine.
Real unbiased link you've provided, by the way.
I don't think that anybody sees suicide bombings as a legitimate military tactic, but I don't think that indiscriminately attacking mixed groups of civilians and terrorists is either.
If you want to make a more meaningful comparison between attacks on civilians then try comparing the casualty figures.

I thought you might criticise the link - you see, in this world full of Amnesty Internationals, it's hard finding any resource that is not anti-Israeli.
Can you find any?

allah snackbar

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RE: Nico99
It's an easy link to criticise.
When they post stories like this:
http://www.adl.org/PresRe le/ASInt_13/5099_13.htm
Which seem to promote a victim mentality, an us and them attitude and a bizarre fixation with Israel while criticising others for believing that Jews have a strong link with it!
Saying that the only sources that you could find that aren't Anti-Israeli are very pro might give you a bit of a hint.
Maybe the ones that you think are anti are actually neutral.
Taking Amnesty to task for their supposedly anti-Israeli stance is a mistake, in my opinion.
There are far worse human rights abusers, but Israel is not a 3rd world country and it's funded and backed by the West, so it should have higher standards than North Korea or the like.

So on the one hand, you think that anti-Israeli sources might actually be neutral.
On the other, you criticise Israel for a 'victim' mentality.
Do you see my point?
Any journalist who isn't left-wing isn't to be believed, I suppose. When people regard Pilger as a distinguished commentator, you've lost before you even start playing the game.
This Israeli 'victim' mindset is an odd one, though.
I mean, their country has been under siege since its birth, surrounded by enemies who want to destroy it and has been persistently attacked over a 60-year period.
I'd have thought they'd all be happy-go-lucky types.

I didn't claim that anti-Israeli sources are neutral, only that sources that YOU believe to be anti-Israeli probably weren't.
Is the BBC anti-Israeli?
The Guardian?
How about Sky?
Israel has been under siege since it's creation because of the way in which it was created.
If somebody decided to create a homeland for the Muslims, for example, and picked an already occupied land how do you think that those people would react?
You're getting way off point, anyway.
Your claim was that Israel didn't select civilian or non-military targets and it clearly does.
Ariel Charon's motto was 'Always Escalate'.

BBC and the Guardian, definitely yes.
Sky - I wouldn't know.
And as for getting off the point - ain't it funny that under a clip of Israeli civilians being blown up on a bus, here we are again debating the rights and wrongs of... Israelis?

Why would the BBC and the Guardian be anti-Israeli?
How did we get onto talking about the rights and wrongs of Israeli policy?
I'll direct you to the 8th comment on this page, the first non-jokey comment and first to mention Israel.
So that'll be,..... er, you....
Oops!

You'd have to ask the achingly-trendy left-wingers in charge of the BBC and The Guardian why they're anti-Israel.
As for discussing the rights and wrongs of Israeli policy, if the vid had been about victims of American aggression, we'd have been discussing American policy.
But they were victims of Palestinian aggression.
Does that mean we end up discussing Palestinian policy?
Of course not.
It ends up being another session of taking a pop at the evil Zionists.
Funny how Israelis are always the bad guys, even when they're spread across an acre of tarmac.
There's that unwarranted 'victim' mentality again...

But you're the one who brought up Israel!
If the BBC and The Guardian are anti-Israel then I'm sure that you'll be able to find some links that prove it.
I prefer Channel 4 News, myself.
How can we discuss Palestinian policy when these people aren't part of any fighting force?
Were we discussing the role of the British Army in the attacks on London on 7/7?
I'm not condoning Palestinian terrorism, but you are condoning the indiscriminate attacks of the Israeli forces on (among other things) marked ambulances, a UN observation post, bridges and water and fuel plants.
How about Human Rights Watch?
Are they anti-Israel?
A New York based US organization.
They were critical of both sides in the recent war, if that's the right word, with Lebanon.
They've also criticised Iraq, Spain, Jordan, Russia, Nicaragua, Burma, China, the US and Sudan amongst others.
Their executive director said this, “Israel wrongfully acted as if all civilians had heeded its warnings to evacuate southern Lebanon when it knew they had not, disregarding its continuing legal duty to distinguish between military targets and civilians. Issuing warnings doesn’t make indiscriminate attacks lawful.”
Here's a link to a report on the war:
http://hrw.org/english/do cs/2007/09/06/isrlpa16781 .htm

We didn't discuss the role of the British Army on 7/7 because the British Army didn't blow up 52 people in London.
Yet here's a clip of Israeli victims of a Palestinian suicide bomber - and we're discussing the track record of Israel, not of the Palestinians who carried out the atrocity.
The best most people on here can say is: "Yes, targeting civilians with suicide bombs is wrong, BUT..." before going on to harangue Israel again.
(By the way, if you think C4 news is unbiased, then you might as well read the Hamas Martyrs' Gazette.)
I'll say it again - the world ain't perfect.
Israel has killed civilians. But - granted only MOST of the time - it tries to avoid civilian casualties.
The people who have sworn to destroy Israel have no such reservations.

Suicide Bombers are among the lowest forms of life. Become a martyr, kill innocent people. Religion is fucked up.

RE: Nico99
And the Palestinian authorities didn't blow up this bus, that's my point.
Israel and Palestine are inextricably linked.
If somebody attacks the actions of this suicide bomber (rightly), then someone else is going to defend them or try to excuse them.
Why?
Because Israel has treated the Palestinians like shit.
Israel is in a position of power.
Israel is backed by the US.
Israel has one of the most highly equipped armies in the world.
Palestine has fuck all.
Whether or not you choose to pick a side (and I don't) is irrelevent to whether Israel deserves criticism.
Of course it does.
You claim that Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties most of the time, but the evidence says otherwise.

thats because the stinkin faggot muslims make sure they fire from the most heavily populated areas-schools-hospitals etc!--wake up you idiot!!

Are you saying that if you catalogued every death at the hands of Israelis, the end result would show that there were more incidents of Israel deliberately targeting civilians when there were no terrorists in the area, than there were of them targeting bona fide terrorists?
You, sir, are a loony.
When I read of civilian deaths caused by Israelis, it's usually in the same news report about how they were after Hamas/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad hiding in an apartment block/refugee camp/village.
When I read of civilian deaths caused by Palestinians, it's usually of the bus/restaurant/nightclub variety.
And Israel deserves to be attacked because it's in a position of power, is backed by the US and has a highly-equipped army?
We're bordering on frothy-mouthed justiification here.
Like I said, Israel is not governed by robots. Mistakes happen. I'm saying, in deciding which side shows the greater evil, you have to tally the number of evil acts committed.
And I'm still saying Israel lags way behind the Palestinians on that score.

are you jewish Nico?

I'd have to be Jewish, right?
I mean, no sane person could otherwise support Israel when it's such an unfashionable thing to do.
Is that the implication behind your question?

Well is it such a crime to deduce that one of the more solid Israel cohorts around here also happens to be Jewish? No. Get that stick out of your ass weisberger...

No, that's not what I'm saying and you know it.
Israel makes very little attempt to avoid civilian casualties when going after legitimate targets and it often uses disproportionate force.
I didn't say that Israel deserves to be attacked, did I?
You're simply making things up to go with your paranoid delusion that everyone in the media hates Israel.
Israel has a lot more resources (military and otherwise) than the people that it goes up against.
Therefore it has a greater responsibilty (in my opinion) to use that power in a decent manner.
Israel clearly doesn't.
Israel wasn't making mistakes in the war with Lebanon.
It intentionally targetted civilians resources (bridges and water and fuel plants) and had a casual disregard for civilian vehicles and buildings.
Feel free to use any resource you like to find these figures, but compare Israeli civilian deaths with those of Palestinians or Lebanese.
Still think that Israel lags behind?

RE: Havoc29
Well thought out opinions.
You've articulated them very well.
Do you work for CNN?

no!-but with your naive and gullible comments you must be the main guy with the BBC or should i say the BRITISH BULLSHIT COMMUNICATIONS-what i said is a well known fact in muslim terrorist tactics-if you can't comprehend that-then that is your problem!

Actually Havoc29, you're talking out of your big, fat arse.
Feel free to browse the report below:
http://hrw.org/english/do cs/2007/09/06/isrlpa16781 .htm
Human Rights Watch is a New York based organization and as you probably think that America is always right, you can't disagree with it.
Ignorant prick.

LOLOLOL!---you're goin to give the link to one of the worst code pink liberal organizations ever--whats next little gutless libby puke-the link to the UN or maybe to moveon-hey how about mother jones-what a dumbfuck you must be!!

Could you try writing that again, but this time can you do it in English?
LOLS and smileys are such an instant sign of a genius.
You should use more.

Disolution, you showed us chapter one.
I, for one, am a big fan of the less-known chapter two:
http://hrw.org/english/do ­cs/2007/08/30/lebano167 40­.htm
Can you say "plot twist"?

goddamn you're one stupid code pink libby puke!!--all the links that you've posted all side with the gutless sandapes!!-again why don't you post the link for al jazeera as well!--HEY YOU!!--YOUR LINKS ARE BIASED--DUH!!! DO YOU GET IT NOW?!

Sorry Damshek, but I'm getting File Not Found Error.
I'm not taking the piss, but could you try that again?
I'm going to try and guess that you meant to link to something criticising Hezbollah or Palestine.
I'm not saying that they are right or better than Israel.
Quite the opposite.
But is that what people want from a country that we in the West are allied with?
"We're on a level with terrorists and Islamic fundamentalists, so we're alright!"
Not good enough, for me.

Disolution:
First of all, this sholud work now:
http://hrw.org/english/do cs/2007/08/30/lebano16740 .htm
Now:
You know, it is very easy to take Israeli actions completely out of context and make it look like pure evil.
This link is to show that Israel had very bad things to deal with in that conflict. Rocket attacks, several times a day, across it's entire northern border being one of them. Which does explain, for instance, air-strikes on rocket-launch sites EVEN if placed in civilian areas. What was the alternative? let them continue bombing Haifa, with it's massive petrochemical facilities, and cause a regional-sized catastrophe? And so on.
Israel is not the perfect state, and has made many mistakes, that cost lives on both sides. But it had very serious reasons to risk the diplomatic nightmare of hitting a civilian population. And this must be taken to account.
And finally, just for perspective:
http://www.me-ontarget.co m/the_daily_tidbit/p,240/
(I don't share the site's beliefs in a "media conspiracy", but the pictures are absolutely correct)

By the way, if anybody that has used the reply button to answer one of my comments is wondering why I don't do the same, it's because it sends out an email with your address attached.
I don't know about everyone else, but I really don't like that idea!

RE: Havoc29
Code pink, libby puke?
Is that the best that you can come up with?
You're a joke.
Nico99 asked me to show him some links that showed that Israel butchered women and children, so I did.
I'm hardly going to show him ones that don't illustrate that point, am I?
Here's one from a traditionally right wing paper in the UK:
http://www.telegraph.co.u k/news/main.jhtml.../31/w mid131.xml
Here's one from another right leaning paper:
http://www.timesonline.co .uk/tol/news/worl...ticle 687705.ece
Notice the casualties?
Lebanese 62, Israelis 4.
What about USA Today? I've never read it so I have no idea about it's politics.
http://www.usatoday.com/n ews/world/2006-11...estin ians_x.htm
I tried to find some other conservative newspapers from the US but they all seem to have suffered from accusations of anti-semitism, so I didn't think that was a great idea!
Feel free to post counter-links that show that Israel didn't really kill lots of civilians.

you are wasting joules of energy by responding to that thing named havoc29..

wrong little pacifist pussy-you just showed nico how the worthless left spin their propaganda!--USA today is one of the most liberal rags in the states-so again you lose-but with you being the gutless waste of flesh that you are-you should be used to by now!-so by all means you little pussy keep posting your "factual" links--can we have the hamas homelink next--you're a fuckin moron!

RE: Damshek
The attacks on rocket sites in civilian areas is fairly understandable, although Hezbollah rarely used that tactic.
That still doesn't explain the attacks on Lebanon's infrastructure (bridges, water and fuel plants) and any institution that was linked with Hezbollah's political wing, eg. schools, welfare agencies, shops.
Indiscriminate fire from a civilised country simply isn't acceptable to me.
As for the Daily Tid Bit, they can't even spell aeriel or use a spellchecker, so I find it hard to take them seriously.
They also appear to have taken their map image directly from Google maps, which isn't updated very often.
Poor.
RE: that guy
You're probably right, but I'll give it a go.

Disolution, Israel is fighting in quite the same manner every other modern country is fighting (I back this up by a link to a good article, it's in the end).
There is no country, no matter how civilized that doesn't bomb bridges during war.
In fact, many _very much_ civilized countries do way worse things than Israel, and don't get criticized half as much. In fact, most people don't even know these things happen in today's world.
Here is a couple of articles by an Israeli journalist, dealing with these (and other) issues:
http://www.nrg.co.il/onli ne/1/ART1/459/499.html
http://www.nrg.co.il/onli ne/1/ART1/483/521.html
P.S.
even the nicest, friendliest dog in the world will bite you if you poke it with a stick. People just shouldn't do that.
P.P.S
If you didn't like the daily tid bit, maybe this will be better. They spell correctly.
http://www.zombietime.com /fraud/ambulance/...ted_r efutations

*Aerial.

RE: Nico99
See?
It's catching.
Fucking Daily Tid Bit.

Anyhoo, it seems we're never going to agree.
I still think the number of incidents in which Israel has set out to kill civilians is way lower than the number of incidents in which Palestinians have set out to do the same.
Granted - because of Israeli firepower - when civilians have got in the way, they've had a damn good caning.
And we could talk for hours about Hezbollah's stranglehold on the Lebanese government and the justification for targeting infrastructure used by Hezbollah... but I'm pretty exhausted, to be honest.
If there's a big, angry dog next door, I wouldn't poke it with a stick.
If people want to poke it, fine by me. But they shouldn't really be surprised when it bites them.

I told you we wouldn't agree, but at least we can discuss it in a civilized manner.
I don't know about you, but I don't tend to make friends with big angry dogs.
They tend to get put down.

RE: Damshak
I could be wrong, but I think that an Israeli journalist might be a little biased towards Israel.
Maybe.
Especially when he says stuff like, "The Muslims, especially in the eyes of the Left, are the retarded kids of the world. From them there is no need to demand responsibility, morale, international law. They are allowed.", which is obviously wrong.
The fact that he has to compare Israel's behaviour with massacres and civil wars to make it sound alright should tell you something.
Paranoid, self-serving, Muslim hating propaganda.
As for the Zombietime link, it's a one man site and he never actually says who he is.
His analysis of the evidence could be completely off for all I know.
He doesn't say what experience, if any, he has in any of the broad range of subjects that he discusses, so his opinions can't be taken as anything other than that - opinions.
He's 9/11 conspiracist and is very pro-Israel.
I'm sure that it's possible to find a neutral observer with a more balanced reading of events than this.

You could be wrong, and you are- Israeli media is very critical in general, and this article was originally in Hebrew, for Israeli audience. so it's no propaganda. it is an opinion column in a major Israeli newspaper.
"...which is obviously wrong"- what is? he's being cynical about the attempts to treat Muslims differently that "advanced" nations. You have no idea how many people- even in Israel- believe that Muslim violence is a less bad kind of violence because they are not "enlightened" like we are.
And it seems you have missed the point of the article.
He is not saying "it's okay coz they do it too lolz", he is saying that Israeli standards of warfare are no less ethical then any other nation's, but get criticized more.
a lot more.
Russia can wipe out ten villages- nobody knows, nobody cares.
Pakistan can butcher more than a MILLION people in Bangladesh- Dead silence.
Israel gets two bystanders in collateral damage- half the world protests against the "massacre". What the fuck?!
And another thing, a lot of people in the world are in a LOT worse condition than the Palestinians- and don't get one tenth of the attention OR the foreign aid. How come starving people in Ruanda don't receive billions in aid annually like the Gazans?
A UN survey of living conditions shows the truth-
the PA is very far from being the worst place in the world to live (place 100). Hell, they are in a better condition than some major Arab states! And yet Israel is STILL accused of "inhuman treatment". Again, wtf?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/w iki/List_of_count...velop ment_Index

Look, I'm not saying Israel is perfect and harmless. That is far from being true.
HOWEVER, a major portion of this conflict is a result of Palestinian self- destructive methods of achieving things. When the world will stop forgiving them and starts demanding responsibility- like it rightfully demands from Israel- then we just might see some progress.

P.S.
Better source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w iki/2006_Israel-L...s_pho tographers
General info about the issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w iki/Media_coverag...tinia n_conflict
(the b&w photograph in the middle is particularly brilliant)
Oh, and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w iki/Pallywood

is that a fucking silicon implant on the vid or not?

RE: Havoc29
You're a brainless prick.
If you can't contribute anything worthwhile, then just shut the fuck up.
RE: Damshek
The author of both those articles is Ben-Dror Yamini.
An ex-member of Likud Central Commitee doesn't sound like an unbiased man to me.
Israel is judged as a Western country as it has Western backing and Western funding.
If the Russians decide to massacre a load of their own people then there is very little that us in the West can do about it.
If Israel commits a military attack then it is done with weapons supplied by and paid for by the US.
As for your assertion that the PA is a great place to live, Israel is 23rd to PA's 100th.
If you examine it by region, Israel is 1st and PA is 6th from the bottom.
There are worse countries, but most of them are in Africa.
Wikipedia is an awful source, but the stories of media manipulation are true.
Trying to draw attention to one sides propaganda while denying the other's is faintly ridiculous, though.
Do you honestly believe that Israel doesn't attempt to manipulate the media?

and you're nothing but a gutless spineless fuckstick who spews nothing but liberal drivel-what a little coward you must be!

RE: Damshek (again)
Seeing as you like Wikipedia, how about this page?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w iki/Casualties_of...006_L ebanon_War
According to the official Israeli figures Hezbollah killed 43 Israeli civilians (including 4 heart attack victims) and 120 Israeli military.
Using the IDF's figures, around 600 Hezbollah were killed and according to the UN 1,191 Lebanese civilians were killed.
So Hezbollah, who were firing indiscriminately into Israeli areas, had a better ratio of military/civilian deaths than Israel.
And that's if you use the figures that Israel itself says are true.
There were also 53 foreign civilians killed in the conflict.
2 in Israel and 51 in Lebanon.
Not great reading for Israel, is it?

Disolution,
Russians massacre Chechnians. They are Muslim.
What about the Pakistani example? or the French one? Or the NATO one? Or any other example of war crimes being completely ignored by the human rights community?
The American military aid to Israel is only around 10% of it's military budget, so "supplied and paid for" is a slight exaggeration.
PA is obviously not a terrific place to live. But it's nowhere near the starvation camp their propaganda tries to pass it for to get more money.
By the way, their leaders are very rich. And all that money is from stolen financial aid.
Had they a less corrupt leadership, they would have been a LOT higher on the list.
Syria is not in Africa, neither is Yemen. And despite being geographically located in Africa, Egypt is hardly an "African" country.
And that is actually my point- "who cares, it's in Africa"?
Why Palestinians, who clearly suffer less than people in Rwanda, receive MORE aid?
And of course Israel, like every country, is trying to manipulate the media to it's benefit. But actually FAKING EVIDENCE to make the other side look bad is a whole new level.
To the best of my knowledge Israel didn't do that yet.
And I'll respond to your Wikipedia thing tomorrow, It's 1 A.M. over here.

Thank god i live in Holland

RE: Havoc29
What a brave keyboard warrior you are.
I can just tell how much you like man-on-man action.
RE: Damshek
The NATO case was while attempting to foil a genocide, Russia has been roundly condemned for it's actions in Chechnya, the Pakistan case was 36 years ago and the French case was around 50 years ago.
You also have to remember that Lebanon itself wasn't conducting the war with Israel.
It was Hezbollah militia, armed and trained by Syrians conducting a proxy war.
The US currently contributes $2.4B to the Israeli military budget, actually around 20%.
That's set to rise to $3B over the next 10 years.
That budget mysteriously seems to get spent on American hardware.
Apache and Blackhawk helicopters, F-16s, SR25s, a number of their missiles, the list goes on.
The PA is a craphole.
Claiming that corruption is the reason that it's over 75 places lower than it's neighbour seems a little far fetched, don't you think?
I'm not saying,"Who cares about Africa?".
I'm saying that Africa has much lower standards of living than most countries in the rest of the world.
The PA has a worse HDI rating that both China and Iran.
That's not great, is it?
Media manipulation and complete fakery are two sides of the same coin.
Lying about something or failing to tell the whole truth.

Havoc29,
You completely mess up your own cause by acting like this. You can't convince somebody if you insult him.
Disolution,
Google "darfur" and "kosovo" for more recent examples.
What you say about NATO and Russia actually helps my point- NATO has made more harm then good, and wasn't criticized, and Russia, though getting some criticism, is still far from becoming a symbol of aggression like Israel.
"...Lebanon itself wasn't conducting..."- yes it was. Besides being militia, Hezbollah is also a political party, with considerable representation in Lebanese parliament. But your right about the proxy war, and neutralizing Iranian influence could probably solve most of the region's problems. The wind seems to blow in exactly that direction, too.
Okay, 20%. Point still valid.
The increase is to compensate for a HUGE military deal with Saudi Arabia.
The limitation to USA hardware is not Israel's idea. At all.
Corruption is not the only reason PA has problems, but it's a major one. Seriously, where did the money go? They received billions from the West, more billions from Arab nations and still the place looks like a lavatory.
Oh, and in the years before they started the Intifada, they actually had economic growth. It stopped the moment bullets started flying around, big surprise.
Two sides, same coin, yes. But I still think Israel's side is cleaner.
I am not avoiding your Wikipedia example, but there is a limit to how much I am willing to type in one sitting. I do have arguments there (even good ones!..). I'll post them tomorrow.

Disolution,
A. The explanation to Hezbollah's seemingly better civilian/military ratio has little to do with them being noble and sensitive bombers, and has everything to do with Israel's early-warning systems working properly.
Israel maintains radar, aerial and satellite monitoring of all it's neighboring countries. A rocket launched in Lebanon triggers a rather noisy siren at it's probable hit spot in Israel. That usually gives people about half a minute to run to a shelter. In the same article:
"...Over 1 million Israelis lived in bomb shelters..." that's 1/7 of the country's population, by the way. And they lived under the ground for almost two months.
If the alarms weren't working, body count would probably in the thousands: "...6,000 homes were hit by rockets..."
So how does that read for Hezbollah?
B. It is rather difficult to tell a dead militant from a dead civilian. they don't carry tags, don't have PIN's, and don't wear uniforms. So the published body count is probably questionable.
Howerver, I didn't say Israel was free from all responsibility.
Many things were done very wrong. For example, Israeli leadership was reluctant to start a ground offensive, preferring the safety of air strikes. But the safety for IDF infantry was at the cost of slow progress, which made the Air Force hit more and more targets in Lebanon as the war dragged out, in hope Hezbollah will fold, which inevitably increased Lebanese casualties. Hezbollah didn't fold, and the civilians lost in Lebanon were the price for it's pride and stubbornness, as well as for the incompetence of Israeli leadership. The IDF had a lot of different plans (that weren't used) that included a land incursion, among other things, which would have ended the whole thing a lot sooner, probably saving a lot of lives on the Lebanese side. But new Israeli PM Olmert didn't want to deal with the mothers of hundreds of dead soldiers right at the beginning of his term. The war was also poorly managed in many other aspects that are beyond the scope of a post. So yes- there was an Israeli fuck up. You will be happy to discover that after the war the IDF Chief of Staff resigned, minister of Defense replaced, and PM Olmert had to demonstrate some major league political skills to stay in his chair. So when I say israel is not perfect, this is what I mean. But as I said earlier, there are many other variables in the Middle Eastern equation besides it, and they are usually overlooked.

have been to israel many times actually saw a bombing a few years ago.this is nothing compared to wats goin on in the west bank and gaza .hatred breeds hatred

At least the cell phone survived

Another high point in the long rich history of Islam. Thank you Islam for bringing about only death and destruction in the past decade or so. You used to mind your own business, and not, you know kill everyone. But now you're just a fucking nuisance. To everyone on here defending this horrific act, I'd go get your head examined. Think about it. You're defending a bus bombing. What the hell is wrong with your brain?
Thank again Islam, for facilitating scores of other atrocities of this very nature all over the world. Whenever you hear about Islam in the newspapers it's always associated with death, that or Muslims pissing and moaning everything. For anyone who agrees with me, WATCH THIS!
http://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=PFHVRR4YQwA

How fucking gruesome!

Fire up the grill Bitch were makin steak tonight

Steaks for dinner

get your meds here http://rxprovider.com

Whatever happends don't let a butcher near those body parts! Those pieces of flesh might end up in somebody's burger or hotdog!

grissly